Know Your Physio

Bulëza Koci, MBA, MPharm: Navigating Resilience and Well-being - Courage, Performance, and the Power of Sleep

• Bulëza Koci • Episode 108

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In this compelling episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with Buleza Koci, a visionary leader and the driving force behind DRYM Health. Buleza's journey is one of resilience and innovation, marked by her unwavering commitment to reshaping the narrative around health and wellness. As a champion of preventive and proactive healthcare, she leverages her extensive experience in patient care and health technology to pioneer a holistic approach to health optimization. Her passion lies in empowering high-performing leaders and their teams, unlocking their full potential by integrating mental, physical, and spiritual dimensions of well-being.

Our conversation with Buleza delves deep into the essence of sustainable health practices, focusing on the critical role of sleep, stress management, and emotional resilience in achieving peak performance. She shares her unique perspective on the importance of understanding individual health markers and utilizing cutting-edge tests and wearables to drive meaningful lifestyle changes. Buleza's insights are not only profound but also practical, offering listeners actionable strategies to enhance their overall health and longevity. Her story, from her early experiences as a "number 0 hire" leading a company to significant financial success to her current mission at DRYM Health, is a testament to her dedication to revolutionizing health care.

This episode is an invaluable resource for anyone looking to redefine their approach to health, especially leaders striving for both personal and professional excellence. Buleza's expertise in marrying data with sustainable lifestyle adaptations offers a refreshing and holistic view of health as a cornerstone of not just personal well-being but also as a vital component of organizational success. Her belief in sustainable growth and health as a catalyst for positive transformation is both inspiring and motivating. Tune in for an enlightening dialogue that promises to transform the way you perceive health and its impact on performance and leadership.

Key Points From This Episode:

What Drives Buleza Koci? [00:04:17]
How Did Buleza's Past Shape Her Resilience? [00:09:06]
Building a Healthcare Company? [00:18:26]
Disease Treatment to Prevention? [00:27:16]
What is the Role of Leaders in Health? [00:32:19]
Is There a Connection Between Leadership and Illness? [00:34:04]
Why is Health Important in Leadership? [00:37:01]
How is Cancer Nutrition Being Revolutionized? [00:41:44]
What is the Dream Health Optimization Process? [00:47:02]
Where is the Line Between Performance and Burnout? [00:59:39]
How Does Health Impact Leadership Decision-Making? [01:08:58]



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Buleza Koci: You know, most people think, OK, when I sell my company, when I have finished whatever I want to finish, then I will take care of my health. Yes, but then people find themselves, you know, in their 50s with a heart attack or cardiovascular disease. And the question is whether that's then a little bit too late.
Andres Preschel: there is only one supplement that I think almost everyone on this planet should be taking and that's a full-spectrum and highly bioavailable magnesium supplement because, well, let's face it, ever since the industrial revolution, our soil has been depleted. of magnesium and therefore our food is depleted of magnesium and on top of that our modern environments which are inherently overstimulating and stressful are constantly depleting our body of magnesium and unlike other nutrients this is not something your body can produce on its own it literally needs to get it from the diet and one individual kind of magnesium alone is not enough. You actually need seven different kinds to support over 300 biochemical reactions that help regulate your nervous system, red blood cell production, energy production, managing stress and emotions, etc. And so the folks at Bioptimizers have made it very easy and convenient to add back in what the modern world leaves out. They've created Magnesium Breakthrough. Now I've been taking this for the past two years and the biggest benefits that I've seen are related to my evening wind down sessions and my sleep. I tend to be pretty overactive in the evenings, just totally overthinking everything that I do. And this has helped me wind down and get more restorative, more efficient to sleep. So I wake up feeling way more refreshed, more energized, more clear, more ready for the day. And the way that I see it, sleep is upstream of essentially every other health and wellness related habit and decision. Because if you're sleeping better, automatically you're going to have more regular cravings, you're going to have higher insulin sensitivity, you can derive more of all these inputs like fitness, right? You make more gains, you gain more muscle, you burn more calories, and you wake up feeling refreshed so that you can do it again and again and again, and then beyond the fitness, you have more energy to go for a walk, to do fun activities with friends, you are less stressed, so you can socialize anxiety-free, and you're also going to be retaining, refreshing, and refining your skills and information much, much better, so you won't forget any names. And, yeah, I mean, like I said, over 300 biochemical processes that you're supporting with magnesium. Then sleep, I mean, wow, better sleep is just a better life in general. So, I found that extremely helpful on a personal level and I'm sure that you guys will find it helpful too. Your mind and body and maybe even your spirit will thank you. So anyway, if you want to get a sweet little discount off of this amazing, amazing magnesium supplement from Bioptimizers, all you have to do is visit the show notes. So you scroll down right now, takes just a couple seconds and boom, you'll have access to all seven different kinds of magnesium that your body needs. All you have to do is hit the link and use code KYP from Know Your Physio. KYP. That's all. Enjoy 10 to 22% off depending on the package you choose, whether or not you subscribe. I'm obviously subscribed because I don't even want to think about whether or not I'm going to get this essential supplement in the mail. And yeah, hope you guys enjoy that awesome stuff. And that's all for now. I'll see you guys on the show. All right, Bullza, here we are finally got a chance to set up this podcast with you after chasing each other for it for so long, because we know that we have some serious conversations we want to share with the world and a mission we want to share with the world. And I'm so honored to have you here finally. So thank you for joining us and welcome.

Buleza Koci: Thank you so much for having me. The honor is mine, Andres. You know, I'm one of your biggest fans of your podcast, so super happy to be on here and really looking forward to our conversation.

Andres Preschel: Amazing. So I typically start these episodes asking one question, and that is, why do you do what you do? And if you can help us answer this question, maybe lead us in the direction of how you arrived at this rule that seems like it makes perfect sense to you. Let's start with why.

Buleza Koci: Why? It's a very important question that everyone should be asking themselves continuously, so thanks for asking that. Why? I think there's a multitude of factors that have led me to where I am today, but I think one of these things, one of the reasons why I do what I do, which is being the CEO and founder of Dream Health, a health and performance optimization company that helps leaders and high-performing teams to reach their full potential through data-driven and holistic health and performance coaching. I think that one of the main reasons is that I'm extremely fascinated by humans as, in general, as a species. But also just humans biologically, physiologically, I find the aspects of how the human body, the sophistication of the human body, which is really the most sophisticated technology that we have on this planet, no matter how far we come with other technologies. And also psychologically, how we deal with each other, how we act as groups, and especially how we act in organizations. As a leader myself, it was one of my main jobs. As a CEO, it's your main job to get the right people on the team and to make sure that they are developing, that they are growing, that they feel happy and fulfilled in their roles. So it was a very big part of my job already to think about what makes people live at their fullest potential and come show up to work at their fullest potential. And I really think that this is, although it's a very multifactorial topic that gets influenced by the environment that you live in, how you grew up, who you hang out with, and your community. I think that at the core of this is really your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your mind and your body, and what kind of framework do you have around you that allows you to show up every day as the best version of yourselves. How do you support yourself in that physically, mentally, and spiritually. I think that, yeah, I believe that one of the most important factors for human development is the communities that we are part of. And I think that, you know, our family is our first community, but our second most important community is the people that we work with because we do spend a lot of our time at work. You know, when people talk about work-life balance, I find this is a slightly strange concept or word because it makes it sound like work and life are two separate things, like life doesn't happen during work. And I do think that most people spend half of their waking life at work. So really, how do we as humans interact with each other at work and how does work influence our life is such an important part of our health and how we live and our potential. And it is the leader's responsibility, the organization's leader's responsibility to make sure that not only they are showing up as their best selves, but also they are They are coming as role models and making sure that there's a culture in the organization that promotes health really in an authentic way.

Andres Preschel: Amazing, and how did you arrive at a role that makes so much sense to you? What do you think that it was about your early life, your upbringing, and maybe your early career exposure that led you, that created this sort of perfect storm? And the reason why I say that is, well, number one, I know you, but I also, I know that this role now makes so much sense to you. It allows you to be so authentic every single day that you show up to work. So, how did your early life create this perfect story?

Buleza Koci: Yeah, that's a very big question. I think, as you know, I grew up, I'm originally from Kosovo. I was born and grew up there and I grew up in very turbulent times. I was 11 when the war happened. We were refugees and really, experience one of the hardest things that somebody can experience, which is being displaced and being part of something that really puts a very high stress on your body. I think that despite having gone through this, I felt like I learned later in life that, of course, this was a very traumatic experience for many people, and for me and myself as well. But you also kind of learn that humans are, in general, very resilient, and that we, even in the face of such adversities, we find ways to survive and to come out of things even stronger in a way. Of course, there's a It doesn't always go like that. There's also people for whom this had a tragic ending, but I think that being part of having grown up in an environment where you can't take things for granted really makes you fight very hard for what you want to achieve. also makes you aware of how important it is to have this community support, to have this positive mindset, to have hope for a better future. I think this was the first part of my story from my childhood, and then the second part is I left when I was 23. I had my second time where I didn't have to leave the country now because of war, but I kind of had to leave the country because of an economic situation. Our family, we had a family business, which failed and we lost a lot of money. I couldn't really get a job because of the economy back home. So I went to Germany. When I went to Germany, I think I told you this, I had literally a thousand euros in my pocket and I went there totally on my own, 23, not really speaking the language that well and started from scratch. And I started, I joined this company as a first person, helped it grow from zero to being one of the leading companies in the space in Germany, which was around really holistic care of cancer patients and other patients that were very critically ill. And I think during this journey, I learned two things. From a patient perspective, I found it a little bit devastating that we waited until patients, until people get cancer, to start this holistic approach of working with them. We would, you know, check their bloods and do personalized nutrition and say, okay, let's add the omega-3 in there because it's anti-inflammatory, or let's try to get them to exercise because if you have more muscle mass, you have a higher probability of on surviving the cancer therapy and all this multidisciplinary, this whole multidisciplinary team was a great, it was a great effort but a lot of times the effort didn't lead to anything because cancer won in a way or we lost and I just thought it was I thought it was a bit of a pity that we waited until people get cancer to start working on them holistically, to start gathering data about them, to start putting the importance of personalized nutrition, anti-inflammatory nutrition, as well as muscle mass. These are things that we talk about every day, a dream together, and you talk to our clients And I think that we are now in the 21st century and we're going through a paradigm shift of what it means to bring healthcare to people. That doesn't have to be, we can need to shift from this reactive healthcare where we are trying to turn down fires, to go back to a more proactive approach, to understand our bodies, to work with our bodies before it's too late, and to put ourselves in the best possible situation that if something like that happens to us, which nowadays with the statistics is not a very low probability, you're in a best place already to be dealing with a problem like that. So yeah, I think this was kind of the healthcare patient side of things. And then there was my own personal story, which was the story of someone who was leading a company that was growing at a very fast pace. And just at the same time, it's very exhilarating. It's exciting. Things are moving forward. The team was growing, but it's also a process that can really push you to the limits. and understanding that you as a leader and the way that you show up every day to the organization and what kind of state you're in really doesn't just influence your performance, but it influences the performance of the whole company. was a big lesson that I had to learn. I was myself twice at the brink of a burnout, so to say, where I really noticed that if I wouldn't change something dramatically to what I was doing, I would be in that very dark place. Once you're there, it's very hard to come back from that. So I had to learn it the hard way. I had to learn to come back and see this as something that is going to be a very long marathon. I was just 10 years into my career and I'm going to have another 30 years of work ahead of me, so it's not a sprint. I think understanding that recovery, taking care of your health, is not something that you do once you're done. It's not something you do when you're done with work. It's something that is a continuous part of your waking and sleeping life. has been a very big shift in my own mindset to bring this to what I think my mission is to bring to other organizations and other leaders.

Andres Preschel: Amazing. And before we dive further into how you're proceeding on that mission today, let's back up for a second because I want to go a little deeper into your story in this company. And first I want to start with an anecdote that you shared with me that just showed how resourceful you were and how creative you were in helping to grow this company. It was the phone call that you had with someone in the US about their marketing, I believe. I want to start with that. I think that's an incredible story. And then I really want to show people how the company became so successful. But as a company grows and as your position in that company grows, I think anyone would start to think, what kind of implications this is having in my identity and in what I'm accomplishing on behalf of the rest of the world. And it's interesting, I've seen this now with so many healthcare professionals, people that become experts in dealing with the end stages of life, which we're always gonna need to reduce suffering and to give people a fighting chance to survive. That is always gonna play an important role. But there are some people that I think are meant to see and experience that so that they can then shift gears and tackle prevention. And I think that it takes a certain kind of person to be able to kind of put things in perspective. I mean, again, I don't want to make it seem as if one person is better than the other. What I'm trying to say here is I am so inspired by people that have this intimate relationship with human suffering and who will take their expertise, will take their career and do like almost like a 180 and go on the total other side to prevent the suffering that they've now become such experts in. And I don't think that it should take that level of … I don't think anyone should suffer before they realize they need to invest in their health and wellbeing. So anyway, can you take us through that story and can you take us through objectively how successful this company became with your preferred KPIs?

Buleza Koci: So, yeah, actually it was kind of interesting because when I decided to leave to Germany, I was in a very difficult financial situation. I had a thousand euros in my pocket. I didn't have a plan B. I was like, I'm going there. I have to make it. There's no choice. Failing is not a choice. And I get there and I meet this person, this entrepreneur who ran a pharmacy and he wanted to start this new company. And he started talking to me in German about this company, about the German drug law, that something was shifting and he wanted somebody to help him build this up. And honestly, Between us and all of your listeners, I had absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It sounded like Chinese to me, like all this stuff about German drug law. I didn't really understand, but I said, you know what? I just said, I guess I'm going to have to figure it out.

Andres Preschel: And part of me figuring it out- You were already a pharmacist, right?

Buleza Koci: I had studied pharmacy and I was one year into my experience, so I was quite young, 24 at this point. I joke always that one of the first things I properly read in German. One of the first books was The German Drug Law, and I would sit with Google Translate and try to figure out what exactly it is that we need to prepare for this production site. Of course, I understood a lot, but a lot of things I constantly had to translate. Then I was just … You know when you're in that mentality of failing is not an option, and it's like, being like, I can't do this is not an option. You're completely in solution mode. You're like, whatever somebody throws at you, you're like, okay, I just need to figure it out. There is some way to figure it out. And I remember the story that I told you was that I was supposed to come up with this process that I had never done before. And nobody in like the founder didn't really do it either. So we were trying to figure it out.

Andres Preschel: What was it? What was the process?

Buleza Koci: So the process was that there was a special type of injections that were supposed to be produced that go into the eye for certain people that have problems with seeing a certain type of glaucoma. And there was a special part of this process which only specific companies knew how to do. And we were trying to figure this out as part of our starting this company. So I thought, well, you know, I obviously can't, how am I going to find this out? I can't call our competition in Germany and be like, hey, how do you do this? But I thought, you know, I thought, you know, I could also just call someone in another country. So I found this person who started this course for the first time, and it was actually someone in Miami. in one of the hospitals there. He had published a paper. So, I called them up, said, hey, I'm a fresh pharmacist. I'm trying to figure this out. And I also called a hospital in a production site in a hospital in France. So, it was called like Two String People. And I just said, I'm in this situation. I'm trying to figure this out. I saw that you guys do this. Would you be able to help me? And it was so amazing to see how people are willing to help you if you just kindly ask. They actually ended up sending me all the production manuals that they had. They ended up kind of like mentoring me on the phone and telling me how to do different things or what kind of like lessons they've learned over time. And I don't know, it was just, it really taught me that sometimes All you have to do is find the right person to ask, and it's not a bad thing to ask for help, and you would be amazed at how much there is willingness of people to help you when you really want to get from A to B. Yeah, that was the first step. And we really are usually starting something like this takes at least one and a half to two years of prep time. And we broke the record and started the company within nine months. Most people couldn't really believe it that we actually started it because you have to prepare everything. And it was pretty a crazy ride in the sense that I was teamed up with the founder of the company who came up with this. He's a very fascinating person. He's extremely creative and he's like, I always used to say, he's like that crazy scientist in the lab that comes up with these crazy ideas. And he would be out there and he would just sell things that don't exist. And he had an idea that they would exist. He would find a buyer and he'd come back and be like, yeah, so we have a client for this new product. And I'd be like, yeah, but we don't have the product. He's like, yeah, let's figure it out. And always this mixture of having somebody that has a crazy idea. And then I would just be like, Okay, I guess I have to make it happen then. And it just, that's how it went. We ended up having, I think, four patents in different medical devices, all in infusion and injection therapies, all around. We really wanted to bring to empower patients. These patients are really dependent on hospitals, on our nurses, on our doctors. They have to imagine you have to eat. Imagine you can't eat and you have to wait for your nutrition to come in a bag every day and you can't even go out of your house without this thing coming. So what we were trying to do is we were trying to create systems that allow the patient to activate these medications themselves without a nurse coming. So to kind of bring a little bit of power, empower these patients back and give them something back in their hands that they can use themselves. And this was a quite successful strategy. We were the only ones that were innovating anything in this space. The space was something, a space that hadn't been, there hadn't been any changes in 30, 40 years. I think the last change that was made was something that was developed in the seventies. So it was very ripe for innovation. And we grew, I think, when I started, we were a team of five people. Within three years, we were already 50 people. And then within seven years, we were 100 people in the company that I was leading. We were making about $7 million in sales of all personalized infusions, personalized service packages around particularly ill patients at home. And then we merged or what we were bought by a company, um, that was basically the leader within the German market, um, of all of these therapies. We became the innovative arm of this group. I then also became a chief executive within the new company, which was a very interesting, um, journey.

Andres Preschel: The company that bought you out, you became the CEO of that company.

Buleza Koci: I was one of the chief executives. I wasn't the CEO. I was the chief business development officer. I got to do all the fun stuff, so to say. I brought in the cannabis therapy for cancer patients and also like anything that was kind of new I was doing and it was quite interesting because I think I was This time I was 30 and it was six years I was after 30 or 31. It was six years in after I had gone to Germany with a hundred thousand euros in my pocket. And I was the only person in the C-level in the board that was a woman. I was the only person that was under 45 and I was the only person that was not German. So I brought a lot of diversity.

Andres Preschel: And probably the only refugee.

Buleza Koci: Yes, not for sure. So yes, it was a pretty crazy ride.

Andres Preschel: Wow, and I mean, that level of growth just shows how committed you are to finding solutions for people that didn't have, that weren't empowered, that weren't healthy, that were suffering so intensely. I think that really shows how dedicated you were and now you're in a position where you became so familiar with it, you just wanna prevent it altogether. I'm sure it was extremely rewarding to do something like that. But I know that now you're seeing things, you see how things can play out in the future. So you're being totally proactive and preventative. And so when did that finally click for you that you had to make that shift?

Buleza Koci: Yeah, that's a good question. I think as a lot of other people, probably a lot of your listeners and everyone that has experienced COVID, I think COVID was a very interesting phase for all of us. Everybody has their own version of COVID, but for me COVID was an opportunity to just pause and really take one step back and think, okay, let me just take it in because I felt like I was just running, running, running without looking back or without just going for it. And that was at a place now where I thought, okay, let me take one step back. I'm not a refugee anymore. like I don't need to run for my life apparently. I'm safe and it's so crazy because you know you're in that position and you might you know show up and look like you're confident and everything but in the depth it's like what is really driving you is this deep sense of insecurity maybe or lack of security or having been in a place where you lost everything where you didn't have that much and having this drive to make it and then Through COVID, I tried to redefine the relationship that I had with what it means to make it or to, you know, what is safety. And I just told myself, okay, you are safe right now. You can actually take a step back and observe, where are you now? Where do you want to be? And what is the next best step? And I felt like, you know, in addition to all of these things that you're talking about on a personal level, I felt that I had been there for 10 years and I had moved a lot of things, but there's something about starting something from scratch that I just find super exhilarating and I think that You know, all the technological advances, all the new things start from things being built from scratch. And although it's a very high risk decision, you know, for me and for my body, I had to overcome this fear of being like, oh my God, you fought so hard to be in the place that you are right now in safety. And now you want to throw it all out to start from scratch. I said the only reason I would do that would be if it is something that very truly aligns with what I believe in. And I started this process of trying to find out what this thing is that I would want to do. I had different versions of how I wanted to get there. One was through psychedelics. I think we talked about this back a few years ago as well. But I kept noticing that no matter which route I took, you know how they say all routes lead to Rome. I was all the time kind of getting to this final conclusion that leaders in our society, whether they're leaders of organizations or leaders of institutions or political leaders, have such a big responsibility and there's such a driving force behind how our organizations, how our communities, are living that without us really creating change, how they understand their own body, how they understand how they function as a human, how do we want to create any kind of positive change in the world if we're not going to get these people to understand the meaning of what it means to be human, what it means to be an interconnected species as humans first, and then as an interconnected species with all other species on our planet. And I think it's a little bit philosophical to go that far high, but I really think in all the crisis that we're in right now, it's a very big leadership crisis. Whether we're talking about the climate crisis or the wars or other political problems, economic crisis, it comes from the organizations, from the businesses, from this growth at no matter at what cost, And I think that we really need to, as a society, but especially at the leadership level, rethink what does sustainable growth mean to us and how is the human factor in sustainability seen in this. And that's how I kind of came to the conclusion that I said, yes, this definitely resonates with me at such a deep level that I'm willing to, you know, jump on the cold water and take this big risk of starting from scratch again.

Andres Preschel: Yeah. And interestingly, so many leaders will sacrifice so much for the sake of helping the company succeed, but almost to making, at least from what I see and I think what we've seen is a lot of them have this incredible innate ability or a combination of ability and luck But they don't take their health seriously and I would love to see how much further they can take their success and their company success and their community success if they are the living, breathing representation of this intuitive approach with their health and wellbeing. Because it only speaks to the rest of the company. If a leader is doing everything for the sake of let's say a profit or maybe even an impact, I would almost go to say that it's shortsighted if they aren't showing what healthy leadership looks like as far as personal health and well-being. And that goes, and that is more stronger rather than talent. Like I'm sure a leader can tell, you know, their employees like, oh, you know, you guys should be exercising and eating healthy. But unless the leader is doing it, I don't think anyone's going to listen closely to anything you have to say. And it's interesting that you have been, and you are a leader and you know how many sacrifices leaders have to make to stay at the top. And I'm curious, in the people that you treated, were there any leaders? Was that a part of your patient demographic? Was there any kind of pattern there between folks that ended up in this sick intensive care and leadership? Did you see any kind of link there at all?

Buleza Koci: That's an interesting question. I don't think there was a particular link in the sense that, you know, cancer can affect anyone. I do think that for particular patients that were, you know, of a more wealthy background or were in positions of, in leadership positions who were in these situations, you could kind of tell that once they were in the situation, they all of a sudden wanted the situation to start being handled the way that they handle their other projects in the business. You know, there to be an update with the decision making and everything, but it's, and of course you can try to do as much as that, and don't get me wrong, there's great advances are being made in cancer therapy. There's the biological therapies are coming out, but it's still a very complex field and it's going to take a while for us to really tackle that problem. But I think this goes to show that Once you have cancer, it doesn't really, once you're at that stage, especially if you're in a later stage and it's not curable anymore, it's more like end-of-life treatment, of course it helps, and the German system is a very good healthcare system, but it just shows you how it brings back the importance of health at the core is the most important thing, and it doesn't really matter in that aspect. how wealthy you are or what kind of job you had, it matters whether you are able to live every day, if you can enjoy your life every day, which is not the case anymore.

Andres Preschel: So I think in simple terms, it's not like leaders have a higher incidence of disease, but because leaders have certain perspectives and certain ways to essentially solve problems, even the most amount of money or resources can't immediately get you out of a position of suffering in this way. And it really matters no matter how wealthy or powerful you are to make these investments early on because we don't have a cure that happens overnight and there will be suffering that will take away from your leadership ability. And you can't just go, oh, well, the ability that brought me here is the same ability that's going to help me solve the issue. Maybe it can expedited and maybe alleviate some suffering, but there shouldn't be suffering to begin with if you incorporate health as part of your leadership early on.

Buleza Koci: Yeah. And you know, we, we, we, I think what we would use, you sometimes say this and you say, well, whether you're the leader of a company or the leader of your household or the leader of your life in a way, it's about having this leadership mindset in the way that you lead your life and thinking ahead of time, just like in a company, you don't wait for things to go wrong to start doing something about it. You don't wait for things to go wrong to start tracking metrics, building up your health so that you can survive very difficult times. If it comes to that, we know for sure that the more muscle mass you have, the better you are able to handle chemotherapy, for example, but also just in general, your general health and the more you already are in a place of stability and in a place of knowing how your body, the baseline of your body over time will help. I think a good example of something that started back then in cancer and has now become means not mainstream, but has become a very big topic in health optimization, is actually glucose. I remember when we first met, I think I was telling you about this, we were at that point running one of the biggest studies that had ever been sponsored in this area about parenteral nutrition for cancer patients, which is intravenous nutrition. Cancer patients are also sometimes in a place that they are unable to eat. So, they have to get, because they have too much vomiting or they're just losing weight and they have to get nutrition through an intravenous route. And what was happening is that there's three companies in the world that produce this, the main companies, and the way they were producing these products, they were like 30 years old and they were half, 50% with sugar, filled with sugar. So they were pumping sugar into the bodies of cancer patients to fill them with calories, so to say. And that was one of our patterns.

Andres Preschel: That's criminal. That's criminal.

Buleza Koci: Yes. And this had been done until a couple of years before. I think it took a really long time. We started in 2012, 2013, bringing out parenteral nutrition with almost no glucose in it because we were, you know, coming to the logical conclusion that it doesn't really make sense to do that because you're feeding the cancer cells and you're leading to tumor growth and it's better to create a ketosis. It's better to, it actually has anti-inflammatory properties. And you know this is, it took a few years. One of these big companies tried to buy us the founder didn't accept that because he thought they're just gonna buy us and shut us down because we were kind of like the the rebels that were going out there and being like no no glucose for cancer patients and yeah now now as you know it is part of our Also, our health optimization program that we look at glucose. Of course, it's a very important fuel for the brain and for the body. As you always say, Andres, we're not for carb phobia. We shouldn't starve ourselves of carbs. They're very important, but constant spikes and constant inflammation of your system is part of things that can lead to diabetes, that can lead to cancer, and so on.

Andres Preschel: It just blows my mind that even a gram of sugar was in their food. And it's not just their regular people moving around, because even that is an issue, but they're totally sedentary. They're totally sedentary. They're saying there's this massive glucose spike, inflammation, glycation, feeding the cancer cell. It blows my mind. It's almost like they want to kill those people. And I don't say that jokingly. I don't want to flirt with the borders of controversy either, but it just doesn't make any sense to me. How could you tell me that you won't want to help me if I have cancer, but then feed me sugar? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, what was the process like of introducing this new paradigm shift? And I know, as you shared, you thought they were going to buy you out to try to close you down. How did you realize that they, in fact, weren't going to do that? And how did you build that partnership?

Buleza Koci: We knew that it wasn't in their interest to change these products because these products had been on the market for a really long time. It would take a really long time to change them. Clinical trials take a really long time.

Andres Preschel: One second, but what clinical trials showed them that sugar was good?

Buleza Koci: Well, none, none. Exactly. That's why we then started a trial, but we had to sponsor it. And, you know, in the beginning we were a small company. And as you know, with a lot of things in health optimization as well, and biohacking, you have this These two worlds, you have one, the world of traditional medicine, which there needs to be data, there needs to be clinical trials, there needs to be evidence to say that something is working. Even if you have some kind of data that shows you that something might be very good, if there's not enough data, they're going to say there's no evidence. And then the opposite of that is biohacking in a way, which is, okay, we don't have data, But we have a theory, and this theory makes sense because of either literature or let's say something like Ashwagandha. There's good data coming out, but it's also something that's been used for thousands of years in traditional Chinese medicine. So taking something like that and saying, okay, I'm going to run an experiment of N equals one, which is myself, and I'm going to test it on myself. and see whether this works is quite the opposite of what happens in traditional medicinal systems. Of course, the more critical the disease becomes, it's one thing to do health optimization. You have a bit more freedom to experiment with what you want to try because maybe you want to I don't know, optimize your performance. You want to think more clearly, increase your focus, have a better sleep, which are all very important things. But if you have cancer, if you go into the traditional healthcare route, they're just going to look first at what is their evidence for, because no one's going to take the risk of trying something else out where there is not enough data, even if, logically speaking, that would maybe lead to a better outcome. And there is doctors that take a more alternative approach. And within this alternative approach, there's charlatans that promise things that are not doable. And then there's actually very good doctors that know that they need to take a risk to give somebody a shot at surviving with maybe an approach that is a bit different than what we have data for in traditional medicine.

Andres Preschel: And can you tell us how do you currently see that relationship between, like how can someone make that transition between intervening with disease and then orienting themselves towards prevention? When do they finally cross the threshold between prevention and dealing with disease and optimization?

Buleza Koci: Yeah, that's a very good question because I think when somebody asks us what we do at Dream, I think one of the main things that I answer is, if you go to your normal doctor, except for the fact that you get probably like 10 minutes of a conversation, they will look at your blood results and there are certain brackets that are considered normal. And then above the normal is disease. There's nothing between disease and normal. So, you know, if you have blood sugar, you either are going to be diagnosed with prediabetes, diabetes, and already start taking insulin, or you are a normal person. or you're an adorable bucket and that's the same with a lot of other results. What we want to do is you want to first of all understand what is your baseline health. You know, what are your baseline metrics? What are your baseline biomarkers? You as Andres, me as Guza. So that first of all, you see, okay, if I have these markers this year and next year and the other year, if I have five years, 10 years of data, I will, first of all, start defining what is normal for me. If there's a certain marker that's three years in a row at a certain stand, and then on the fourth year, it starts going down by 20, 30%, it might still be in the normal bracket, but it's definitely trending downward. we don't want it to be trending downward. We don't want it to be, we don't want it to get to the sickness level. And if you go to the norm in the traditional medicine, which you know, you can't blame doctors because this is what, how the system is designed, you just get sent home. You're not sick, you can go home. And I think the health, that's where, you know, health optimization and prevention meets disease I think disease is that you're not letting yourself get into this level or you're helping yourself bounce back. You're helping yourself stay within the brackets and you're helping yourself, you know, not just with what you're seeing on your own data, you zoom out, you say, okay, what kind of disease is prevalent in my family? How have my grandfather or my grandmother passed away? Is there a history of cardiovascular disorder? If there is, maybe that is something I should be paying a little bit more attention to. I think continuously, and there's a limit to this, there's also people that obsess over it, and this shouldn't be causing you more stress, But having a framework of how to understand what is the baseline, what does your body look like when you're healthy and understanding when is it going in the wrong direction, I think is very important.

Andres Preschel: Yeah, so that's a great way to put it. It's like if you look at the trends and you see where they're headed, you can take action early. You never have to experience a disease state. And the amazing thing about disease that I learned when I was in school and I took an advanced disease prevention class around, I was the only undergrad around a bunch of PhDs. And one of the biggest lessons that I learned there that I was lucky enough to learn is how and exactly why most of these diseases exist together. It's like they work, synergistically, but in a negative way. And it's like, if you look at disease across the US, so many of these diseases are so prevalent and you think, well, there's not enough people to have each and every one of these diseases. It's not the case at all. It's like most people have many diseases. And so it's not like one thing trending one way is going to be an issue. It's like one thing trending one way, can you have another thing trending another way, inversely? And it's like, oh my God. And so it's like, if you see one thing trending one way, you start taking action on that one thing, maybe that is enough to help you prevent a host of diseases that could otherwise proliferate. And then, as far as the actual ranges of what is optimal health, what's your perspective on this? The ranges that we have, that modern medicine has outlined, how do they compare to optimal health ranges and references?

Buleza Koci: Yeah, I think to take maybe one step back even or a little bit zoom out, I think one optimal health when we're talking about how the ranges themselves are one way that we look into, it's like a snapshot of what is currently happening in your body from a from one way of measuring it but you know as you know Andres and you know that we're both big fans of this there's different ways of measuring there's you know we have the blood results and we have our devices whether it's you know that or a ring or whoop or whatever other even apple watch for continuously monitoring your heart rate or your hrv Then we even have, as you and I are currently both testing or on the glucose monitor and looking at glucose monitor, really looking at your body from a holistic perspective continuously. And then I think this is the data part. And I think in addition to the data part, it's very important to also have that qualitative aspect, that qualitative layer of being in tune with your body, not only continuously looking at the numbers, but also continuously asking yourself every day when you wake up, how do I feel today? What kind of mental state am I in? If I would give myself a one to 10 grade on my state today, what is it? Is it a seven? Is it an eight? Is it a six? And what are the factors that are influencing it? Is it what I ate? Did I go to the gym? Did I sleep well? Who are the people that I'm meeting? What kind of activities? What kind of people are energizing me? I think that's why I always talk about optimal health as a framework. You have the data from bloods and devices, and then you have the psychological framework of really being in tune with your body and then how you interact within this. I think to come back to your question around what is optimal, of course, there's some, for some of the ranges, there's different definitions, you know, there's different experts that have different opinions of what is optimal. I think, in my opinion, optimal should be defined based on your baseline. There's an optimal heart rate for me and there's an optimal, I can't say, okay, what is an optimal heart rate? Yes, I could say a normal number, but there's going to be an optimal for one for me. based on what my body usually does. And there's going to be one for you. And that's why I really think that when we're in this field of health optimization or just preventative and proactive approach, really the personalization is such an important factor of understanding that each of us, we each have our own bodies. with our own unique markers and our own unique ways that it works and understanding, you know, this is what you live and you breathe with knowing your physiology is the first step into understanding what is optimal for you.

Andres Preschel: And what does the sequence typically look like for people that want to approach their leadership and their life in this fashion? how do they get involved with someone at dream and what does that journey look like and why does it work? How is it effective?

Buleza Koci: So, um, it's a very important, I think that the first step is very important because I always say, um, um, this is not a product that we deliver in a silver platter. This is a product. It's unfortunately people, uh, you know, would like to just take a pill, or just have something that they can pay for, and then they will have the optimal health. Unfortunately, or actually fortunately, I think, it's a product that you have to be very involved in yourself. If you're not really willing, if you are not, you need to be in the mindset of you want to do this. Because as you know, Andres, if you have a client, you've worked with so many clients in your life, and of course, it's important what you are giving them, but it's also important how willing are they to show up. So I think the first step is very important to define, do you want to show up and are you willing to make this investment? And then the actual process is that while we onboard a person, we try to really understand what is the context that they are in. We try to really do a On one hand, we zoom in. We understand everything about your body. We have a set of tests that we do. Comprehensive blood tests is just the basic, but we look into VO2 max, which is a measure of your cardiovascular health. Musculoskeletal analysis, which looks at your mobility and flexibility, and if there's any potential for injury. Then we look at maybe a deeper dive into hormones or gut health. depending on your situation and what you need. We pick the best tests for you so that you don't have to think there. And then we also match you with the right devices, of course, and understand what are Create that framework for you. What are your goals? What are the main metrics we should be tracking over time? A very important part is also the psychometric analysis, understanding psychometric analysis and just a context analysis, zooming. After we zoom into your body, We zoom out and say, okay, which stage of life are you in right now? Are you just married and you just had a baby? We understand that's going to affect your life, it's going to affect your sleep. Or you just got divorced or your kids are out of the house and now you have a newfound freedom. Did you just change your house? Did you just change your job? All of these factors are very important factors in the way that we work with you, so we take a really holistic approach. And then after we understand who you are, where you are, where you want to be, We try to design together with you a route how to get there the best way and match you with our experts, with the ones that fit best to you, to your personality. Andres, I'd love to hear from you what you think about it, but in my opinion, the relationship with a coach is such an important factor in success. And I know that people talk about all this developments in AI and an AI health coach, and I understand that that's a very important way that we are going to proceed as well and to bring this product to the mass market. But truly, I don't think that a relationship with a very good coach will be able to be replaced by technology. Not at the moment. Absolutely. Maybe in the future where there's an avatar version of you, but not at the moment.

Andres Preschel: Well, I mean, I'll tell you what, I think that in a world that is being totally overtaken by AI, it's more important now than ever to really develop your interpersonal skills so that you're not replaced by AI and so that you can really highlight your unique value and the things that only you can do. I think it's more important now than ever So yeah, like familiarize yourself with AI and use it to the best of your ability, but it's not an excuse to dismiss yourself for what you're capable of. It's not a Band-Aid. It's like you should make at least an equal investment in your personal human abilities. And I think a lot of that comes with being social, being engaged with people, being present with people, spending less time online, more time in person with people. And while I see my clients, my dream clients through Zoom, I do everything in my power to be absolutely and totally present with them. and really understand it, not to become friendly and friends with them, but more so to build a relationship where we fully trust one another and we're fully aware of what really do we need to prioritize so that we can create an avenue that makes sense, an avenue that they can approach with confidence that orients them naturally towards the best and healthiest version of themselves. So I spoke previously, I mean, I think, you know, when we started this conversation, we were talking about all the different ways that the wrong habits and the wrong leadership, how they can lead you to these diseased states and how it's so sad to see people in diseased states because even as leaders, it's typically too late to do something that, you know, meaningful. By that point, so much harm has already been done. And it's not like our clients are people that are dealing with such a degree of illness, but we know that if we can make even small adjustments that influence their wellbeing, they're going to be more fulfilled as leaders. And we know objectively that they're never going to have to deal with this kind of suffering, you know, years down the line. And that to me, it's not as, Here's the thing about prevention is like, it's very rewarding, but you're not saving lives. You know what I mean? Theoretically, you are, but you never see the repercussions of like, what if I didn't do this?

Buleza Koci: But I do think that that's why prevention is of course the backbone, but that's why we also talk about performance. Because I think that it's not just about not getting sick, it's also about the ability to show up as your highest functioning self as your best self every day and to be able to tackle the challenges that are giving it to you. And especially as a leader, you don't only have the responsibility for yourself, you have responsibility for the whole organization and for whatever mission you are driving forward. If you think about it, all the solutions to cancer or to other problems out there are being brought forward by some crazy founders out there that are coming up with new ideas and being like, okay, let's go for this and let's discover something new, or some leaders that are really taking risks. It's not easy. It's not an easy task to be a at the forefront of technological and scientific development and really pushing the barriers. And these people have a lot of responsibilities on their shoulders, them and their organizations. And I think putting them in a place to show up to that job, to be able to do it in the best way that they can without burning out, because let's be honest, a lot of people burn out in this process. is also an indirect way in working on all these different advancements.

Andres Preschel: Well, we're laying the, so what I think the link there with performance, the way that I would describe it to tie into this with you is like, if you can help lay the foundation for physiological excellence to happen, then performance is an option and you can opt in whenever you want. That's the way I see performance. It's not like, you know, like, yeah, like I think a lot of the people that we work with are, have supernatural abilities. But what we're doing is we're essentially looking at your lifestyle, looking at your data and guaranteeing that you can tap into that as often and as much as you can without burning out. I think that's really the secret sauce.

Buleza Koci: And you know this, this without burning out, that fine line between, you know, using the stressor as something that prepares you to take on the challenge and show up I know I was talking to you a few weeks ago when you were going to have your keynote speech at the conference, and you did say you were slightly nervous, but it's that very nice nervous feeling, right? Oh, yeah, totally. That gives you that extra kick. And I think the relationship with stress and how how we measure it, how we feel it, but also how we use it. How do we use dress to work with our body and not against our body. How do we use good stress? We talk a lot about whether it's cold showers or cold plunges or good stress in the sense of very intense exercise. It's all good stress that increases the resilience of our body, prepares us to be ready for more stress in a way, but also avoiding that that part of stress, which is just simmering there and is not really preparing us for anything. It's just not allowing us to recover.

Andres Preschel: Yeah. And there's so many leaders that I work with who are type A individuals that are just go, go, go, go, go, nonstop people. And while those people, I think a lot of those people who initially take an interest in fitness and biohacking and fasting, they can It's very likely that they overdo it. They want to add in as much health as they can so they do the fasting. When they combine all these things, I think what they're not keeping in mind is that these are all hormetic stressors. The idea is that they are stressful and that stress can prepare your physiology, that it can benefit you, that it can make you faster, fitter and stronger and leaner. But if there's already a nexus of stress that you're not effectively recovering from, then it's doing more harm than good. It's making you more catabolic. It's pumping up your cortisol, your adrenaline. It's increasing your resting heart rate, diminishing your HRV, and over time, that You may seem on the surface like you're the healthiest guy ever. Maybe you are getting leaner because you're just super catabolic, but you're not getting healthier. And the odds of burnout and being totally wiped out and extinguished are extremely high. So I think the leaders that actually want to accomplish the most, they need to recover the hardest. And they need to know if you have data, you know exactly when, how long and how to recover. It gives you the insights. And I think what we believe here at Dream is that that data hopefully lays the foundation of what becomes an intuitive approach, a more intuitive and mindful approach to your leadership ability.

Buleza Koci: Yes, I fully agree with you there, and it's what the core of our philosophy, I guess, in our approach, and I think it's really important. this concept of what you're talking about, the performance slash burnout, or where do we talk about performance, stress for performance and burnout, but also just in general, the kind of language and the paradigm that is around the topic of burnout and well-being and how it's seen in organizations, especially in the types of leaders that we work with. We're usually working with very fast-moving people that are in high-growth environments where it's really about, I guess, the version of Olympic athletes in the business world. And I think that for a long time, there's been this badge of honor, like talking about how few hours you have slept or how almost feeling like you're almost burnt out was almost kind of something that you were supposed to do as a, let's say, as a founder. As if you're not at that point, you're not really actually doing your job. And, you know, exactly these leaders, they get to a point where their organizations go to a certain point where maybe the team has come to a point where they start leading, and that's when they start doing this exercise of how do we increase engagement, how to make sure people aren't leaving, and they start doing wellbeing as a checkbox exercise and offering wellbeing perks within the organization. As we said earlier, if they're not living and breathing it themselves, if it's not coming from the core, it's not really going to be a trickling down into the organization. And I think what we're trying to do together, Juanbrez, and I know that you have a big, I've had a big role to play in this, is to really reframe what it means, what health means, or what well-being means, and it's not something that you are showing weakness, and you're not like, getting your recovery in and actually setting boundaries and saying you will get eight hours of sleep is not a sign of weakness. It's actually a sign that you understand that the other version is not sustainable, that you understand that you make better decisions. You're not doing this just for the sake of well-being. You're actually doing this because if you do get your, bless you, if you're doing this, You do this because you understand that if you don't get your energy levels right, if you don't, if you're not eating right, if you're not getting enough sleep, you're simply not going to be able to make the best decisions. You're not going to be able to problem solve. And this ability to shift the mindset of people to see health as a core, as the backbone of performance and not something that you do after you're done performing, Most people think, okay, when I sell my company or when I have finished whatever I want to finish, then I will take care of my health. Yes, but then people find themselves in their fifties with a heart attack or cardiovascular disease or whatever, all this multi-morbid disease that you were talking about. The question is whether that's then a little bit too late.

Andres Preschel: Yeah, exactly. And I love that because of the relationship that we have, I'll put it this way, the relationship that we build with our clients ends up being so deep, so trustworthy, they can really truly like and approach this change in their lifestyle with so much love and so much trust. And then that just simply shows when they're in their work environment. It's not like, hey, I'm biohacking now and I'm fasting now and I'm doing HIIT training now. Oh yeah, I just got to go to the gym. It's not that. It's the way that they're showing up because they naturally do that. They naturally see how critical that is to be their best. And when they show up like that, when you bring that kind of energy, that kind of aura to any workspace, any kind of community, even to your family, they're going to be more inspired. They're going to start to think a little differently. Showing over telling every single time. And I think that our approach, yeah, we do performance. Yeah, we do biohacking. Yeah, we do data. But it's more of like, how do you show up? And what does it have to say about the way that you take care of yourself? How can you take care of yourself to show up even better? And how is that going to inspire the people in your company to do the same? So that's the trickle effect that we're building. I think that's one of the most important ones that we're building is how do you show up?

Buleza Koci: Yeah, fully agree. I think, like you mentioned, we actually had, I think, one of the most rewarding moments is obviously seeing people progress and seeing people have that impact into their teams. We've had people that we work with that did the program for a few months and then came back to us and said, you know what, I actually want to give a version of this to my team. Can we do something as a group? And I think there's really some very good learnings to be made in the sense of working within groups. We were just working with one group of 20 20 liters where we were measuring very deep with this chest monitor called the First Beat HRB for five days, really understanding what their current levels of stress throughout the day are, how good are they recovering, how's their sleep. Basically, I think HRB is measurement of life in a way. It's not just measuring basically 24 hours, how is your nervous, just reacting to everything that you're doing and getting that recovery balance, understanding where their balance is and coming back to them individually and showing them the data and saying, this is what your body is experiencing during your normal day in a five-day period, and this is how much you're recovering, and this is what you need to really show up, and actually showing them examples with real-life data on their bodies makes such a big difference to just talking theoretically about things. And then also having that opportunity to come back as a group and not only learn through your individual experience, but also learn as a group from each other. And also break that taboo of talking about these things. Start breaking the taboo of talking about burnout. Make it normalized. Normalize leaders, founders, and their teams speaking up about recovery being needed or I think quality of sleep should be one of the main metrics in any organization. I think that if you have a sleep score for your whole organization, and that sleep score is in good shape, then you're doing something right. If that sleep score is all of a sudden, then it's okay for it to go down now and then if there's a really big project to be done or there's something happening but if that's continuously going downwards then it's also a marker or indicator that there's something going wrong.

Andres Preschel: I mean, this is really where you start to understand that your human KPIs are your business KPIs. If I have five sales guys that are going to do a pitch to a company and they're all pretty decent and one of them has a significantly higher HRV score or recovery score that day, he's going to be the one on the sales call, period. He's going to be more emotionally regulated and prepared to achieve peak performance. Period. That's just a matter of fact. If we look at a company and we look at our employees or our team as being like all these chess pieces, everyone's playing a different role in a different way. How can we look at the objective data that shows us which is the best chess piece to move in? Why? you know, in order to win. And I think that if we just kind of go by, Oh, you know, yeah, you're clocking in nine hours, boom, just get your work. Sure. I think that's the old model. I think the new model is Who's oriented for performance today? How can we make sure that we get the most out of that person today? How do we make the most of what they're ready to accomplish? And then someone who needs more recovery, how do we find a way to get them involved in a way that doesn't require them to be in a high performance mode in order to perform? So it's like, you can be very strategic about that if you have the data. And I think Huberman, I don't know if it was Huberman that said this or someone else, but But it's like nowadays, don't ask me how I'm doing. Ask me how I'm sleeping. You know, it could sort of reveal so much more about my life and my quality of life. And you know, I think that is something that you can really act on, whereas just asking me how I'm doing, all right, I'm not doing that well. Okay, well, I hope that you feel better. No, it's like, I didn't sleep that well. All right, well, maybe you should prioritize your recovery today. Maybe you shouldn't exercise later this evening. Maybe you shouldn't fast, do cold exposure, take it easy. Here's a to-do list that isn't going to require you to be a peak performer, maybe just a few action items that you can execute on. We can see these shifts and I think improve the wellbeing of the company if we to their KPIs or human KPIs like business KPIs.

Buleza Koci: Definitely. I think sleep is such a good one, not just because of sleep itself, measuring the hours of sleep, but measuring heart rate during sleep, which is what most of the devices also do, really gives you such a Such a deep insight into what is happening with the nervous system of that person. I had myself, one of the main metrics that I track over time is my resting heart rate, actually. Of course, HRP as well, but I particularly look at my resting heart rate as a measure of my nervous system. How calm am I? How good is my sleep, of course? And I really noticed a month ago when we were in the very stressful times with all this news of war. Obviously, as I said in the beginning, I have experienced war myself, so this is a very triggering situation for me. It's very hard to not worry about these things. Also, where my parents are, there was also a little bit of a risk of something again starting. I just noticed that on top of everything else, for that week, all of a sudden, my resting heart rate was about 10 to 15 beats higher every night in that week that I was worrying so much. It just reminded me that No matter how good I think I'm handling it or not handling it, seeing that number really reminded me to really dial up on my wellbeing practices, make sure I'm disconnecting from my devices ahead of bedtime, make sure, especially in these hard times, that I'm getting in my whatever I need to make myself to make my nervous system calmer. Maybe not always, it doesn't always change the situation, but I think having these numbers support you in building that interoceptive awareness that we always talk about, this intuition, this ability to understand what's going on with your body is super important. I think if there's one, if I could choose just one metric to measure, I would probably choose nighttime resting heart rate.

Andres Preschel: Amazing. And I was going to ask you, what do you believe everyone should know about their physiology? But I think you really already answered that question for us because it's so revealing of almost everything else. If we look at sleep as being so far upstream of every other healthy habit, if we get the sleep right, everything else kind of figures itself out pretty nicely. 100%. I know we're running short on time here, but I wanted to ask you, given the vast experience that you've had from disease intervention to disease prevention and now health optimization and your personal history, if you could put a message somewhere on a billboard, whether it's a phrase, a sentence, what would it say and where would you put it? What does every, well, not every, but what would it say and where would you put it? It can be for a very particular crowd or it can be for a mass audience.

Buleza Koci: Yeah, that's a very good question. I used to have a saying that I would always write either like if I had to write an essay or anywhere, I had this quote in my teenage years and most of my 20s and it was, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. And I think it was like a mantra that I had to tell myself when I was going through very rough times and it reminded me of resilience. And I really try, I think it's a very important getting through hard times in life. And so much is a lot to do with mindsets and really seeing opportunity where there are problems and seeing even if something really bad is happening to you, seeing a way to to grow out of that. But I have to say, now that I've been running quite a few workshops on burnout lately, I'm not sure I fully agree with the saying anymore, because I do think there are some things that won't kill you, but they're also not going to make you stronger, and that is burnout. You really need to understand to what degree can your body and handle adversity and we're in the boundary before you're going to create more damage. You might not die, but you're really not going to be in a good place. And once you're there, it's very difficult to come back from that. So I actually, I have my home phone here. I'm just going to open it because I, I wasn't this Chinese. I wasn't this Chinese. restaurant and I got one of these, you know, these like cookie things and I read it and I was like, yes, portion cookies. And I've had it since, I think I found it like two or three years ago. And it says, courage is not the absence of fear, it is the conquest of it. And I really think that this was, I think, just a couple of months before I quit my job to move countries, start a new company, completely start fresh, take such a big risk. And I know a few people were telling me like, oh my God, you're so fearless. And I'm like, Hell no, I'm not fearless at all, and I'm very scared. But it's not the absence of fear that defines courage, it's just conquering it. The answer is not letting it stop you. to connect it back to what we were talking about, I think it's very important to have courage to live your best life, to have courage to show up as your best self, to have courage to show up as your authentic self, to have courage to do things differently, and to not let fear stop you from becoming the best version of you. I think that is one message that I would give as a The general advice to everyone.

Andres Preschel: And where would you put this message? So to everyone, does that mean that you would put this billboard on the moon?

Buleza Koci: Well, you know, I'm a big fan of the moon, so that's a great… I didn't know that actually.

Andres Preschel: I didn't know that about you.

Buleza Koci: I'm a moon worshiper, but I wouldn't ruin the moon with any sayings. I think it's beautiful as it is. I think a good way to put it would be, a lot of people, I find that every time I travel when I'm, I think, at the gate or somewhere where, I think when you're in an airplane, it's a very good time to reflect. I've made big decisions on airplanes. You know, there's no phone, nobody's bothering you. You just can be you and yourself and you can make some big decisions. And I think showing it somewhere on an airport or somewhere you can see it from an airplane and then having that time to reflect what is the courage? What, what do you need? What in your life do you need the courage for and what kind of fear is stopping you from doing it? How can you conquer it?

Andres Preschel: Well, Boza, thank you so much. It's been fun.

Buleza Koci: Thank you so much, Andres. It's been a pleasure talking to you, and I just want to say at the end that I'm so honored not only to be in your podcast, but I'm so honored that we have gotten to work together since the last year. You've been such an important part of building DREAM, and you are You live and breathe what you talk about. You've been such an inspiration for all of our team members, for us as well as our clients, and it's been an absolute honor to work with you.

Andres Preschel: Thank you so much, Balza. That means a lot to me. Thank you. Let's keep it up. We have more work to do, and we have to continue to take care of ourselves as we do this work and as we proceed through it. So that's all for today's show. Thank you so much for tuning in today. For all of the show notes, including clickable links to anything and everything that we discussed today, everything from discount codes, to videos, to research articles, books, tips, tricks, techniques, and of course, to learn more about the guest on today's episode, all you have to do is head to my website, AndresPreschel.com, that's A-N-D-R-P-R-E-S-CHEL. E-S-P-R-E-S-C-H-E-L.com and go to podcasts. You can also leave your feedback, questions, and suggestions for future episodes, future guests, so on and so forth. Thanks again for tuning in and I'll see you on the next one. Have a lovely rest of your day.